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	<title>Comments on: Taking it to Da Hood</title>
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	<description>Excursions in theology</description>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://inthebeginningwastheblog.com/2009/05/10/taking-it-to-da-hood/comment-page-1/#comment-1788</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 05:22:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://inthebeginningwastheblog.com/?p=140#comment-1788</guid>
		<description>As a former pente I can say that the view from inside was also distasteful.  I saw that the presentation was more important than the message, in much the same way that junk food has all the appearance of real food without any nutritional value.

Recently I&#039;ve been reading Kierkegaard.  He writes that the revelation-fact of Christianity is actually offensive to those it encounters, rather than appealing.  Note that his intended audience are those who had a prosperous life and who grew up in a &quot;Christian&quot; society.  The gospel parallel is the rich young man.  Nevertheless, he makes a great point that Christianity is not meant to be glamour, but will be a difficult experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a former pente I can say that the view from inside was also distasteful.  I saw that the presentation was more important than the message, in much the same way that junk food has all the appearance of real food without any nutritional value.</p>
<p>Recently I&#8217;ve been reading Kierkegaard.  He writes that the revelation-fact of Christianity is actually offensive to those it encounters, rather than appealing.  Note that his intended audience are those who had a prosperous life and who grew up in a &#8220;Christian&#8221; society.  The gospel parallel is the rich young man.  Nevertheless, he makes a great point that Christianity is not meant to be glamour, but will be a difficult experience.</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa</title>
		<link>http://inthebeginningwastheblog.com/2009/05/10/taking-it-to-da-hood/comment-page-1/#comment-1784</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 03:07:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://inthebeginningwastheblog.com/?p=140#comment-1784</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been reading up on the origins of the work ethic, and apparently the Methodist Church was not so different in its beginnings, only they were &#039;selling&#039; the promise of happiness and good times in the Hereafter rather than the present. It helped to keep the working classes (who had little chance of social mobility) hardworking and obedient for the masters of industry, who found Calvinism much more appealing. Calvin, according to one book, saw the accumulation of personal wealth as the sign of God&#039;s blessing, so no wonder the two doctrines appealed to different social classes. In our individualist, consumerist, instant-gratification society I doubt there are too many Churches that could grow on a promise of happiness to come rather than happiness and belonging now. 

I take your point about traditional liturgies not readily including children and families (although I think this can be done with effort). I have also seen churches that have bent over backwards to accommodate &#039;young people&#039; lose the very ones they are trying desperately to keep, and have come to think that maybe there is a place for growing children into some of the more traditional rituals of the church; if for no other reasons than that they can provide time for contemplation and the comfort of familiar routine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been reading up on the origins of the work ethic, and apparently the Methodist Church was not so different in its beginnings, only they were &#8216;selling&#8217; the promise of happiness and good times in the Hereafter rather than the present. It helped to keep the working classes (who had little chance of social mobility) hardworking and obedient for the masters of industry, who found Calvinism much more appealing. Calvin, according to one book, saw the accumulation of personal wealth as the sign of God&#8217;s blessing, so no wonder the two doctrines appealed to different social classes. In our individualist, consumerist, instant-gratification society I doubt there are too many Churches that could grow on a promise of happiness to come rather than happiness and belonging now. </p>
<p>I take your point about traditional liturgies not readily including children and families (although I think this can be done with effort). I have also seen churches that have bent over backwards to accommodate &#8216;young people&#8217; lose the very ones they are trying desperately to keep, and have come to think that maybe there is a place for growing children into some of the more traditional rituals of the church; if for no other reasons than that they can provide time for contemplation and the comfort of familiar routine.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Smith</title>
		<link>http://inthebeginningwastheblog.com/2009/05/10/taking-it-to-da-hood/comment-page-1/#comment-1765</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 11:32:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://inthebeginningwastheblog.com/?p=140#comment-1765</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a good point Andrew and one that came through when I read David Tacey&#039;s &quot;Spirituality Revolution&quot; a few years ago. He admits that newer forms of spirituality will mix and match religions so it doesn&#039;t necessarily mean that Christianity has a future in its traditional form.

Lisa, the census data over the last few years does indicate that the fastest growing form of Christianity falls into the &quot;other&quot; category which typically means Pentecostal or Charismatic groups although the Catholics are at least growing as fast as the population (while all other groups are growing slower than the population growth if they are growing at all (and some rather vocal conservative anglican evangelical groups are not doing as well as they would like either)). I think the conservative moralism is a big part of it but there are consumerist factors too: Pentecostal churches tend to &quot;sell themselves&quot; and don&#039;t shy away from marketing campaigns, and activities designed to make converts.  The underlying mentality of saving souls by selling the promise of happiness and good times works. Traditional churches look on with a mix of distaste and jealousy I think.

We have made friends with some people who go to a charismatic church in our suburb and it does sound attractive the way they adjust their forms of worship to be inclusive of children and families in a way that traditional contemplative liturgies can&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a good point Andrew and one that came through when I read David Tacey&#8217;s &#8220;Spirituality Revolution&#8221; a few years ago. He admits that newer forms of spirituality will mix and match religions so it doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean that Christianity has a future in its traditional form.</p>
<p>Lisa, the census data over the last few years does indicate that the fastest growing form of Christianity falls into the &#8220;other&#8221; category which typically means Pentecostal or Charismatic groups although the Catholics are at least growing as fast as the population (while all other groups are growing slower than the population growth if they are growing at all (and some rather vocal conservative anglican evangelical groups are not doing as well as they would like either)). I think the conservative moralism is a big part of it but there are consumerist factors too: Pentecostal churches tend to &#8220;sell themselves&#8221; and don&#8217;t shy away from marketing campaigns, and activities designed to make converts.  The underlying mentality of saving souls by selling the promise of happiness and good times works. Traditional churches look on with a mix of distaste and jealousy I think.</p>
<p>We have made friends with some people who go to a charismatic church in our suburb and it does sound attractive the way they adjust their forms of worship to be inclusive of children and families in a way that traditional contemplative liturgies can&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa</title>
		<link>http://inthebeginningwastheblog.com/2009/05/10/taking-it-to-da-hood/comment-page-1/#comment-1755</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 03:02:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://inthebeginningwastheblog.com/?p=140#comment-1755</guid>
		<description>It could be that rather than being more popular among the rural population that it is more popular among those who are looking for something solid to hang onto in the face of constant upheaval. This would cover many rural areas, but may be why it is also popular in the less well off outer suburbs of major cities where it is the conservative evangelical churches that are growing. They offer the comfort of black and white morality and something seemingly solid in a grey world full of uncertainty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It could be that rather than being more popular among the rural population that it is more popular among those who are looking for something solid to hang onto in the face of constant upheaval. This would cover many rural areas, but may be why it is also popular in the less well off outer suburbs of major cities where it is the conservative evangelical churches that are growing. They offer the comfort of black and white morality and something seemingly solid in a grey world full of uncertainty.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://inthebeginningwastheblog.com/2009/05/10/taking-it-to-da-hood/comment-page-1/#comment-1754</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 02:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://inthebeginningwastheblog.com/?p=140#comment-1754</guid>
		<description>Urban environments allow ideas and trends to travel quickly.  Unfortunately, this also increases the risk that they will be treated as little more than novelty.  To those with virtually no exposure to Christianity, it could be just another idea on the endless sea of choice, rather than the only genuine alternative to aimless meandering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Urban environments allow ideas and trends to travel quickly.  Unfortunately, this also increases the risk that they will be treated as little more than novelty.  To those with virtually no exposure to Christianity, it could be just another idea on the endless sea of choice, rather than the only genuine alternative to aimless meandering.</p>
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